[ch15r36isParticipant]

1. Shaq – Dominated the first half of the decade.
2. Duncan – Leader of the most consistent team of the decade.
3. Lebron – Will most likely end up as the best player on this list.
4. Wade – Only injuries can stop D-Wade. You could easily argue he’s the best player in the league…no one does though.
5. Kobe – Can’t deny the talent, but I don’t think he ever learned to use that talent as effectively as he should have.
6. Dirk – A little overlooked when you consider how far the Mavericks have come since he joined them.
7. Kidd – The best PG in the game since Stockton left.
8. KG – The David Robinson of the decade. Great all-around game, never could carry a team all the way on his own though.
9. Nash – Probably wasn’t quite good enough to win 2 MVP’s, but he brought a lot of excitement back to the game.
10. Iverson/Billups – Two totally different games at the same position, but I have a hard time putting one above the other considering their achievements.

[Mr. BasketballParticipant]

Dirk at #6? No T-Mac? Iverson at #10? Tied with Billups, r u kidding me?

[ch15r36isParticipant]

You make compelling arguments, clippers. But, no, I’m not kidding.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

Pierce, Carter, and T-mac are all better than Billups

[Sheed36Participant]

T-mAc doesn’t deserve it but was memorable that comeback against Spurs and that dunk over Bradley

[evan13Participant]

Carter and T-mac aren’t winners though. Billups won with the Pistons and he’s improved the nugs

[CitrusiswowParticipant]

Pretty good, I would make an argument about that Wade is teh absolute best player in the league cause he’s awesome, but I would put Pierce in.

[NYKnicksuperFanParticipant]

how is he not no.3 lebron may be on par with him now but this list is of the decade and kobe has played all 10 years while lebron has played about half and “kobe didnt use his talent as well has he should have” are you joking? kobe has the best work ethic in the league and to put wade over kobe is just straight up outrageous

[cprizz15Participant]

there is no way lebron or dwade come in front of Kobe, i mean its somewhat close but kobe has more championships than them both along with an MVP season last year.

but i do like the billups pick.. won multiple championships and just look what hes doing with the nuggets this year. solid choice.

also i would prob move iverson to 4 or 5

[daUnum26RIPParticipant]

minus Kobe’s 3 rings(thanx 4ever shaq) as a B) player Wade has clearly done more with much less as he supermanned the Title & real MVP with Kobe’s trash(shaq & payton)
Kobe’s biggest A) player accomlishment: Blowing a 3-1 series lead to the defenseless Suns(who never even made it to a Finals let alone win 1)

So, “outrageous” that’s a bit of an overstatement, don’t ya think?

& Kobe still needs the most dominate/talented inside game in the league to have a legit shot at a title(Gasol, Odom, & Bynum)……NO EFFECTIVE BYNUM & NO CHAMPIONSHIP…GUARANTEED!!! Wow, Kobe needs a lot of help!

13 years of evidence to support that.

He is still Gr8 though.

[daUnum26RIPParticipant]

Kobe’s black & white commercial where he hits the game winner against the Suns…..Isn’t that the prelude to Kobe choking the series away…LOL

[ch15r36isParticipant]

I’ve never understood this undying devotion that people seem to express towards Kobe, although I do realize he is an extremely polarizing talent/personality.
I just think Wade and James right now are far and away better players than Kobe has ever been in his career (check the efficiency ratings for statistical evidence), and like Jordan, they both have the innate ability to make their teammates better. Kobe’s always been more content to jack up contested threes, and while he may make a few, this type of offense doesn’t do his teammates any favors. I also believe Kobe’s defensive statistics bear out the fact that while he may be a great perimiter defender, he doesn’t apply the defensive effort as consistently as he could, and saves himself for offense.
He’s still #5 on the list, though, so don’t despair too much.

As for Iverson, his teams haven’t enjoyed the consistent success that many of the other guys on the list have, and he is a career 42% shooter, which has always bothered me.

[llperez]

Kobe needs way too much help, he has never accomplished anything on his own, not even in the same category as Lebron and Wade?

I don’t expect everybody to like him, but at least be realistic if you are gonna hate on the guy. I guess Shaq won those titles all by himself. Carrying Smush, Walton, and Kwame to the playoffs 2 straight years in a tough western confrence also is’nt as bad as people seem to think. And how is Wade doing in this years playoffs again? Oh that’s right, he is at home.

[billykParticipant]

I would put Pierce at 10….

[NYKnicksuperFanParticipant]

but if i recall right d-wade won a ring b/c of shaq too and has been a mess without him”worst record in NBA last year” and yes i agree with u lebron would win championships with kobe’s supporting cast but the bottom line is he did so stop playing the “what if game” the post is titled the “best players of the decades” not “if maybe these players had good supporting casts who would be the best”

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Paul Pirece gets slept on. He is better than Dirk and Billups in my opinion. Lebrons the man but show me that ring. I like iverson too, but wheres that ring.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

haha…i love this post. People will defend their favorite players to the bitter end. I agree with the original post. I think?? lol Yall are crazy to think Tmac is up there. He is finnaly out of the first round and its because he is hurt.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

You agree Dirk and Billups two of the best of the decade? lol

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Either you are joking, or you must be smoking. Kobe is the BEST PLAYER OF THE LAST DECADE. Look at it like this.
– 5 seconds on the clock and your team has the ball. Who do you want to take the shot (in the NBA over the past decade)?
– Best perimeter player has ball (besides Kobe) with 5 seconds left. Who do you take to defend him (any player over the past decade)?

The answer to both of these is KOBE BRYANT. Stop hating, if statistics meant everything, Mr. Bigshot wouldn’t even make your list. He deserves to be there though, ask the Nuggets. So many Jordan lovers just deny his greatness, sure Wade and Bron are great, but Kobe defined it in the most athletic decade the NBA has ever seen.

How is Iverson on your list? WTF did he do? He’s the worst teammate on earth, who would want him. Not to mention, he proved his worth in Denver. Many guys in the NBA can average 1 point for 1 FG attempt, many just don’t get a shot to like Iverson. Seriously how is he on your list? He can’t defend, (he can GAMBLE and get steals, usually just ends up out of position) forget it, I’m done. I could name 25 guys I’d rather have than that cancer.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Even still top 10 player in the last decade is crazy, just crazy. I have always been a Chauncey fan, but no way is he a top 10 player in the last 10 years.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

Billups is overrated,
People do not realize the fact that he SUCKED in his FIRST 5 years in the NBA

Billups should be ranked like #16 on this list.

YOU FORGOT AMARE STOUDAMIRE, AND YAO MING TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

maybe not on tallent alone but billups sure can win…and dirk was an MVP before Kobe

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Other players got MVP when Jordan was playing,did not mean they deserved it. Dirk should not have one. I think Dirk is a hell of a player but MVP of the league nope. Jordan was the best player every year all day everyday, but other cats still got MVP so it don’t put Dirk in the top ten over Pierce=MVP OF THE FINALS last year.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

I wasn’t sold on CBIL either, but Denver is a legitimate team now. All thanks to that glue piece. I don’t think Billups is overrated, at one time I thought so, but he is more than a proven WINNER. He took big shots, over and over, and is always the answer for his team. You just have to give props to a winner, especially a guy who wasn’t even “worth” having at one time.

[WälseParticipant]

i think KG should be ahead of Wade, Dirk, and Kidd. his resume is pretty complete. i’d put Kobe at #4 followed by KG. The Big Ticket has the ring, the MVP, and the all around game that absolutely has to rank him ahead of Dirk and Kidd. Wade will likely surpass him, so i wont really argue that. the top two is on point and should be set in stone. LBJ may be a stretch at #3 at this point, but in the end i think he’ll be the best to ever lace em up. i really dont think Chauncey belongs on this list either, especially ahead of The Truth.

[michaelds911Participant]

1) Timmy Duncan – Was good every year in the 2000’s, and won three rings. He is simply the PF to ever play.

2) Shaquille O’Neal – Would be #1 but he tailed of too hard in the later half of the decade.

3) Kobe Bryant – Would be higher as well but we all know that Shaq carried him during his championship years, but I don’t think Shaq could have won without Kobe as well.

4) Lebron James – He’s taken a garbage team to the finals, he’s about to win this years MVP and the scary thing is that he is not done improving. Once he wins one he’ll be ahead of Kobe.

5) Dwayne Wade – He would be the leagues best player, but there is a guy named LeBron who will forever overshadow him. He would have to do a lot more amazing things before he can be ahead of #3 and #4.

6) Kevin Garnett – He has always had the skills, but he could never get the right talent in Minnesota to get the job done. However he finally got one in Boston. He is one of the most complete forwards to play the game.

7) Allen Iverson – In his prime he was the absolute best scorer in the league. He took a team full of bums to the finals just like LeBron, but never got close after that. Easily the toughest guy in the league.

8) Jason Kidd – He can make the worst players in the league look good. He is one of those rare guys who can get a triple dub every game, but he’ll never get the respect because he hasn’t won a ring.

9) Vince Carter – The most athletic guy to ever play the game. He would be higher as well but he could never win the games that count. He came close to the finals but he missed the game winner in game 7 vs. the 76ers. Maybe he should have skipped his graduation that day lol.

10) Dirk Nowitzki – He has one of the most unique games in the league with his ability to shot from anywhere on the court at 7 foot. He is one of the hardest guys to check.

Honorable Mentions – T-Mac, Chris Webber, and Paul Pierce

[WälseParticipant]

i really like your list and i think you have the right 10 guys. howeva, the more i think about it the more i think KG belongs in the top 4. i did some research to add to what we all know already. He’s got a ring, an MVP, a DPOY, 12 time all star, 9 time All Defense, 9 time All NBA, most 20-10-5 seasons all time, 4 time RPG leader, 20 triple doubles, 1 of 4 players in history to lead his team in all 5 major statistical categories, and the only player in league history with 20,000 points, 11,000 rebounds, 4,000 assists, 1,200 steals, and 1,500 blocks in his playing career. we all know the type of leader/teammate he is on top of that. Right this moment, i think he belongs at #4. After LBJ gets his MVP and ring this year i’d slide KG down to #5. i think he absolutely must be ranked ahead of Flash. if anyone put him at #3 i wouldnt dispute it at all.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

KG didn’t have as good a decade as Dirk. The stats are relatively close (KG was a better rebounder, Dirk a better shooter/scorer), but the Mavs never won less than 50 games in a season in the 00’s. Dirk also lead a team to the Finals…something KG never did until he got 2 other superstars along side him.

Vince Carter doesn’t belong anywhere near this list. He finished in the top 10 in MVP exactly 0 times this decade.

Chauncey Billups’ stats since he joined the Pistons are on par with (or better than) just about any other point guard in the league. If I had to win one playoff series, I’d take Billups over Iverson or Pierce any day, without question.

Lebron or Wade would have won three (possibly more) championships if they had been paired with Shaq on those Lakers teams. They are better now than Kobe ever was. The stats bear that out.

[PureshooterParticipant]

I like the original top 10, but I would have to put Tony Parker at number 10 ahead of Iverson and Billups. Iverson is an incredible talent, but never learned to defer to teammates. Billups has a similar resume in many respects, but I don’t feel that he can command and take over a game in transition the same way as Parker.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

11. Iverson – Drop him down just a notch below Chauncey, because I think Billups has proven himself more valuable in the last year.
12. Pierce – Finals MVP played on some really bad teams.
13. Tony Parker – An overshadowed talent, that might just now be reaching his peak.
14. Amare – On pace to revolutionize the position before the knee injury.
15. T-Mac – One insane year, a lot of bad teams, and a lot of injuries. What could have been…
16. Yao – Injuries/excessive off-season activity have limited ability to dominate for a full season.
17. Arenas – Injuries hit right as he was about to hit his peak.
18. Ray Allen – Best shooter of the era.
19. Vince – He did start off the decade relatively strong. Just above-average, at best, since then.
20. Pau/Bosh – Quality big men who have spent too much time in bad franchises.

[espn365Participant]

I have read all these posts and there are so many agreements and arguments to be made, but there are a few that I think are absolute:
** Tim Duncan and Shaquille O’Neal are #1a and #1b for best player of the decade. Not worth debating whether Shaq’s dominance in the Lakers’ three-peat outweighs Duncan’s consistency from beginning to end. Those are the top 2.
** Rings are important, but should not be making people’s decisions. Chauncey Billups is an excellent player, but chances are he doens’t make the HOF (he does have time to build on his resume). Allen Iverson is unquestionably a top 40 player of all time. Billups may be top 20-25 of the decade, but he is below the following, in no particular order: Kidd, Garnett, Nowitzki, James, Wade, Bryant, Nash, Allen, Pierce, McGrady, Yao.
** Lebron and DWade are definitely in there. Michael Jordan played as many full seasons in the 90s as these 2 have in the 2000s, anyone going to argue he was not the best of the 90s. Other than their rookie years (03-04), these guys have been in the handful of best players in the league, and will finish the decade as arguably #1 and #2.

[joecheck88Participant]

tim duncan, shaq, kobe, lebron, d wade, kevin garnett, dirk, jason kidd, paul pierce, tony parker. first seven are the best no doubt. all won championships or led teams to finals with lesser talent. jason kidd led the nets to 2 finals and the best point guard statistically the last decade. paul pierce has been a monster all decade with a ring now. and tony parker has 3 rings and a finals mvp. the only other people you could put in the top 10 are chauncey billups, 1 ring 1 finals mvp. steve nash, 2 mvps and multiple deep playoff runs. that is it, everyone else is not close.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Just a few comments on Billups, and why he is better than Iverson, even statistically.
1. The Pistons played one of the slowest paces of any team in the league this decade. That’s why his per-game numbers seem low, but his PER numbers since he joined Detroit are on par with or above Iverson’s.
2. He is arguably a better outside shooter than anyone in the league over the past 10 years. He shot over 39% from 3 with over 300 attempts in 7 of the last 8 seasons.
3. Best player on a team that went to at least the Eastern Conference Finals 6 straight years, with 2 Finals appearances in there.
4. One more Finals MVP than Kobe, Dirk, Kidd, Nash, KG, and Iverson.

[eprizzle14Participant]

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Garnett
Wade
Dirk
Iverson
T-mac
Carter

Thats it. Only reason tmac doesnt have a ring is cuz the Magic wasted his prime by never getting him help.

[WälseParticipant]

the stats are not close. Dirk has never been as good player as KG. He’s never even been 20-10. He’s never averaged even 4 assists. his blocks and steals averages are well below KGs. and many would argue that he didnt deserve his MVP. he plays no defense either. i think you’re rewarding Dirk for having better teammates and punishing KG for finally getting some. Dirk has had future HOFer Nash along with all stars like Mike Finley, and Josh Howard over the years plus help from guys like Jamison, Walker, and Stack with zero rings to show. KG had Sprewell, Cassell, Brandon and not much else worth noting. the only thing Dirk has over KG is scoring and thats 22ppg to 20. KG is a better leader, rebounder, passer, defender, shot blocker, and steals guy who has a much bigger impact on games.

[espn365Participant]

Players with no rings or Finals MVPs : Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton. Sometimes the cards just don’t fall into place, it does not diminish any accomplishments. And for everyone putting such an emphasis on winning— 1 year ago KG did not have a ring, is that really what makes him a no-brainer for this list ? NO. It is the decade of playing great basketball. Also, Tony Parker has just stepped into the group of truly elite players this year. his finals mvp is nice, but everyone still knows Tim Duncan was their best and most important player regardless. The Cavs couldn’t guard Parker so he lit them up in that sweep. But to say that Tony Parker is a top 10 player of the decade is a big reach.
Robert Horry has more rings than he knows what to do with, and he played a very big role on each of those championship teams, but he isn’t one of the top 100 players of the last 20 years.

[WälseParticipant]

i tend to agree. look at Elway for instance. was he not legendary already before the 2 rings? unfortunately, that has become the accepted way to gauge careers. sometimes i think any al star guard from Shaq’s prime could have won a ring teamed with The Big Aristotle! T-mac, VC, Kidd, Iverson. i think thats not too unrealistic. just speculation though.

[WälseParticipant]

my problem with Billups is i’m not sure he has ever been the best player on his own teams. with that title team one could make an argument that all 5 starters were equally important. Rasheed was undoubtedly the most talented. Big Ben was their heartbeat. Rip was the scorer. Prince was the perimeter stopper/jack of all trades, and Billups was the unquestioned leader. i have a hard time putting Billups on a list full of franchise players when he is obviously not one himself.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

The stats are definitely close. Check their PER numbers over the last 10 years. Dirk changes the game on offense the way KG changes the game on defense. There is no way you could pick one over the other based purely on stats. Dirk scores more, shoots better and turns the ball over less. He is a significantly better offensive weapon. KG is a significantly better defensive player.
I am not punishing KG, as much as I am rewarding Dirk for being the best player on a very good team.

[michaelds911Participant]

Yeah you guys are really overrating guys just because they have rings. Parker and Billups are good but not all-time greats. You guys are basically saying Parker and Billups are better than Gary Payton and Stockton, if rings are the only things that matter.

[WälseParticipant]

but the gap between KGs offense and Dirk’s offense is many times smaller than the gap between their defensive contributions. Dirk is not significantly better on offense. he’s a significantly better shooter. Dirk is a liability on defense. They call him Irk because there’s no D. a guy who averages a basket more a game is not significantly better. KG has been better in the post, at the rim, and on the break. KG is a career 50% shooter to Dirk’s 47% since Dirk spends so much time shootig from the outside. They have completely different offensive games, but i think calling Dirk significantly better offensively is dead wrong. as far as PER i’m not going to support John Hollinger and his quirky formulas. i’ll take you at your word on that.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Dirk’s a 7-footer that can handle the ball reasonably well, shoots 40% from the 3, and can post you up inside. That type of versatility is unmatched in the league, and creates ridiculous matchup problems for opposing defenses. In that respect, Dirk is a much bigger threat on offense than KG. The same way, KG’s presence can create problems for opposing offenses.
I know everyone loves KG, and his incredible all-around game, but he’s not a player who can throw his team on his back and take over a game offensively. Dirk can do that.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

Quit complaining about Dirk;s defense, Nash shouldn’t even be there.

[WälseParticipant]

all that said, who do you really believe is more valuable to a team? i think if you asked all 30 GMs who you would rather have on your team this decade, at least 25 would say KG, if not 29. he’s just more of an impact player.

[TravelinTravParticipant]

Hands down KG is a better ball player. With the list T-Mac in his prime was as good as Kobe on the offensive side. You have to put a repeat MVP in Nash on the list. I think when we ask this question a year from now CP3 well be on the list.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Dirk cant mess with KG man no way. I think Garnett is the best defensive player in the history of basketball. I remeber dude sticking point guards when he first came in the NBA and shutting them down. He also has offense too. No not the shooting of Dirk, but his J is money too from 19 in. KG is better than Dirk.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

I’ll take Dirk over KG. I think his offensive repertoire is more valuable over the course of a season. I think a lot of GM’s would agree, but I’ve already made the case over and over.
So we’ll just have to agree to disagree, unless someone can make a more compelling argument than “I remember dude sticking point guards” or “Hands down KG is a better ball player.”

[WälseParticipant]

all those accolades that i mentioned arent compelling to you? Dirk’s resume doesnt come close to matching KGs. can you come up with a better argument than PER and you like his offense? hows this? its really not even close.

KG: 12 allstars, 9 all defense, 9 all nba, 1 MVP, 1 DPOY, 1 Championship, Most 20-10-5 seasons all time, 1 of 4 all time to lead team in all 5 statistical categories, career avgs, 20.2 ppg,11.1 rpg, 4.3, ast, 1.4 stl, 1.6 blk

Dirk: 8 all stars, 8 all nba, 1 MVP, career avgs. 22.7ppg, 8.6 rpg, 2.7 ast, .9 steal, 1 block

[billykParticipant]

Damn I think alphamale makes a good case for KG, personally I would pick KG because he has been second to Duncan as the best power foward this decade….

[michaelds911Participant]

I love Dirk but KG is better. He is waaay more complete. What yall need to be arguing about is the fact that people think Tony Parker and Billups should be in the top ten.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

You just can’t make the case, statistically…unless you completely ignore PER, turnovers and 3pt shooting %, which you may choose to do, at your own peril. KG’s been in the league longer than Dirk, also, so scratch the All-Star and All-NBA team argument.
Dirk’s team was consistently better than KG’s team. There’s the tiebreaker for me.
I appreciate that this is certainly a debatable issue, but I think it leans toward Dirk.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Those number even with dirks 3s do it for me see steals and assist

[ch15r36isParticipant]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jack_mccallum/03/06/choosing.sides.nowitzki.garnett/index.html

“see steals and assist”…thanks, those are more relevant, because you say so. See playoff numbers while you’re at it.
I think it’s close enough that it can go either way. They are different players. Both top 10 players this decade. I take Dirk. You take KG. It’s not unanimous either way. Let’s just leave it at that.
I think this topic has run its course.
Chauncey is top 10.

[WälseParticipant]

of those that have commented on KG or Dirk in this forum alone: 9 take KG, 1 takes Dirk. its not close at all. Chauncey is not top 15. lol

[WälseParticipant]

1a. Shaq
1b. Duncan
3. LBJ
4. Kobe
5. KG
6. A.I.
7. D Wade
8. Dirk
9. Kidd
10. Vinsanity
11. T-Mac
12. The Truth

[evan13Participant]

I am from Texas and Dirk is not even in the same league with KG. The onl thing Dirk has over KG is shooting. That’s not a very important part of a power forward’s game and Billups may not be top 10 but he is def top 15

[joe2BAParticipant]

The best criteria for this ranking is “best player on a championship level team”, MVP, and championship rings.
1. Tim Duncan – if you count the 00-01 season as the start of the decade, than he has more rings than Shaq
2. Shaq – will go down as a better player than duncan because he dominated two decades
3. Kobe – look I hate the guy as much as all of the Kobe haters, but 3 rings, 1mvp. I know he played with Shaq, but he had a chance to win another ring last year and is a favorite to win it this year. Also could be the most clutch. I think all of the arguments for Lebron and Wade ahead of him are justified because they are better team players and ultimately will end up as a better player from an historical standpoint. But for the body of work for this decade, which was the criteria, Kobe.
4. Kevin Garnett – MVP, 1 championship, and 1 defensive player of the year (underrated criteria). Great teammate, leader, and makes everyone better. And just as importantly, the best defensive player besides duncan on the list. Accomplished a lot on a horrible franchise, lead by Kevin Mchale! Was the best player on the championship team last year, not by a lot.
5. Lebron James – MVP, 1 championship game, could win one this year. Will be the best for the next decade for sure, but isn’t higher because he started his career in 2003.
6. Dirk Nowitzki – MVP, 1 championship game (that was a close 7 game series that slipped away). Remember the Mavs before him….Horrible defensive player though.
7.Jason Kidd – like was earlier stated, best pg after John Stockton retired. 2 championship games with sub-par teammates
8.Dwayne Wadd -1 championship, finals mvp (the best finals performance since Jordan), would be higher, but started in 03
9. Steve Nash – 2 MVPs, 1 unjustified. And no D whatsoever.
10. Paul Pierce – 1 championship, 1 finals mvp, and Bob Ryan from the boston globe pronounced him as the best offensive weapon in celtics history. He said it, not me.

[michaelds911Participant]

Allen Iverson should be on the list. He has been to 1 finals just like Dirk, but his team was much more horrible. As much as I hate Iverson, you can’t discount his impact on the game.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Iverson is not worthy of a top 25. What does he offer? He’s a guy who averages 1pt per fg attempt, the NBA is full of guys who can do this. Not to mention he BLOWS on defense (don’t mention steals- that doesn’t translate to good D), horrible teammate, and an LOW BBALL IQ. You Iverson lovers get to caught up in his highlights to remember how he affected an entire game.

[michaelds911Participant]

I don’t like Iverson either but he is better than Billups

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

is that why before biillups the nuggest were gonna sneek into the playoffs but now they are the number two seed??

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

WOW..to not be an Iverson fan you are really blowing him there…

[WälseParticipant]

you dont have a top 5 scoring average in league history and not be one of the 10 best players in your best decade. you cant be a 10 time all star, 7 time all NBA, 3 time steals leader, 2 time all star MVP, regular season MVP, former ROY, and a 4 time scoring champ, and not be one of the top 10 players of your most productive decade. i’m not an Iverson fan myself, but lets give credit where credit’s due. and nthegoodlife, its funny that you of all people would criticize anyone for loving a player so much that they lose objectivity. given your undying affection towards Kobe and all.

[WälseParticipant]

those are facts homie, not opinion. thats not blowing him. thats evidence.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Yea but you did some extra work to find that out and you are defending him to the bitter end. Sounds like somebody has a man crush..

[WälseParticipant]

would you prefer that i said he belongs in the top 10 because his crossover is sick and i liked his intricate cornrows?

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Nah man…you say what you want…but if you dont like Chauncy, just say so. Oh by the way, Iverson has no ring. You don’t need to comment on that because I know you will just defend him till you are blue in the face. But ya know what, he is good. There. Is that better?? Sorry if I hurt your feelings… I mean, everyone is going to defend there favorite player to the bitter end. Right??

[WälseParticipant]

Again i am not an Iverson fan. It’s not even about removing Billups. Fact is Iverson has had a great NBA career and has established himself as one of the marquee players of his era. You have turned this into some kind of Iverson v. Billups battle. There are a lot of guys who have been great players that I am not a fan of, but I will always give a great player his due. You are coming across as the one defending his fave player. You arent hurting my feelings, but you are very annoying.

[WälseParticipant]

are you serious with this? i did the same for KG earlier in this forum & i would do the same for any player who is not getting his due. it’s much easier to get your point across when you have indisputable evidence. what are you even trying to accomplish by calling me out?

[espn365Participant]

Isn’t this a forum on best players of the decade, and not who we like ?
Fact: Chauncey Billups finished 6th in MVP voting this year.
Fact: Allen Iverson did not.
Fiction: Chauncey Billups has had a better cumulative decade than Allen Iverson.

I posted the other day about this, and also noted that people on here are focusing too much on rings when so many greats do not have any and countless others do. The argument that so many guys could put up the same numbers as Iverson with as many shots is ignorant. Yes he has shot a lot over his career but no one accuses him of being a great shooter. He is a great scorer. He has been able to get to the line because he’s probably the quickest player ever and is willing to get knocked down. Billups played on a great team that beat the Lakers and should be credited for it. But let’s not forget he had all-star caliber players around him. Why has no one mentioned Rip Hamilton as one of the 10 best of the decade? How bout 4-time DPOY Ben Wallace? Because they AREN”T. Neither is Chauncey, don’t let this past year distort your thinking.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

Ya’ll all forgot about THE HIBACHI GRILL aka Zero-to-hero aka Gilbert Arenassss !!!!!!!!!!!!

[michaelds911Participant]

You just want to get yelled at Aminu. I hope you’re just saying that as a joke.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Ya know, I have to say I do like Billups more than Iverson but he is not my favorite. To me, a great player makes the people around him (or her) better along with having individual tallent. Iverson is a great player but I have to pick Billups over him any day. Everyone on the original list made their teammates better except Kobe and Iverson. Kobe has the right to be up there because he has a few rings along with everything that Iverson has. Billups is the better player and has shown it by taking the same team that Iverson had and making them one of the best in the NBA. What did Iverson do with Billups team? Nothing. Made a fuss because he wasn’t getting his shots, made the alstar team because he is AI, cut his hair, then “hurt” his back and quit. Does that sound like a top ten player in this era?? Not to me. However, you have a right to your opinion and I have a right to disagree. Lets not get personal. And the comment about Billups playing on a great team. He made them great. Without a great point guard, what would that team have been?

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

You sure do know a lot of info about a guy you don’t care about. Anyways, I’ll admit I like Kobe and Wade more than any other player. I love there killer instinct, and how far each of their games has came since joining the league. With Iverson, he’s the same since day 1, a scoring first point who jacks up bad shots. You call him a two, I say he can’t guard anybody. You call him a one, I say he can’t distribute. His game has to many flaws to be considered top ten. TEAM CANCER!!!!

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

AGREED!!! But he is good at taking shots…

[michaelds911Participant]

Well can you explain how he took a team with guys like Matt Geiger, Todd McCullough, Aaron McKie, and a whole bunch of other whack players to the Finals and actually win a game vs. Lakers, which I don’t believe any other team had done during the Laker 3 peat . I truly don’t believe Billups could do that. He wouldn’t even have came close. Although I do agree Billups makes good teams a lot better, he can’t make a horrible team look decent like Iverson did for so many years.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Idk…your prolly right about that.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Can’t take away what he has accomplished. He did single-handedly take a very mediocre team (albeit, through a very bad conference) to the NBA Finals. He has also been one of the best pure scorers in the game over the past decade.
That being said, he is a one-trick pony who’s never been able to lead a team to any type of sustainable success, and I’d take Chauncey over him any day of the week.

“I’m not sure everyone understands quite what a devastating offensive player Billups is. He only played 32.4 minutes per game last year and Detroit was the league’s slowest-paced team, so he averaged just 17.0 points per game.

But look at how efficient he was. Billups got his points on just 11.2 field-goal attempts per game because he was so good at both drawing fouls and making 3-pointers.”

Give Iverson the edge in pure scoring ability, give Chauncey the edge just about anywhere else.

[michaelds911Participant]

The East wasn’t near as weak as it is now, and if Chauncey is such a devastating player please explain why he was a journeyman his first 5 seasons. Chauncey is only good if he has good guys around him, he can’t do much by himself.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

That’s a humorous statement: “The East wasn’t near as weak as it is now.” I’d like to hear your explanation for that. The Eastern conference didn’t have a team even remotely capable of competing for an NBA championship from 1999 through 2003.
Come on, we all know the story about Chauncey’s first 5 years in the league: Pitino gave up on him too early and he had injury troubles his first 3 years in the league. Check Stockton and Payton’s first three years in the league and stop making such a meaningless argument.
Nobody in the league wins a title by themselves, but great players can make good, or even mediocre teams into a great teams. Chauncey did that.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

“Chauncey is only good if he has good guys around him, he can’t do much by himself.”

I totally agree with michaelds911, not only that he is not the top 10 best for the past decade, there is also no way that he’ll become a hall of famer.

Billups is no good when his does not play with good players. Unlike CP3 and Wade, he can NEVER carry a team on his own.

[billykParticipant]

Can somebody name one player who has carried a TEAM on his OWN, success in basketball has lot to do with how successful your supporting cast is…..

[WälseParticipant]

like Michaelds911 said, Chauncey makes a good team better. You dont build around a guy like Chauncey. Do you really think he could win anything as a team’s franchise player? Has he ever seen a double team? Do other teams design game plans to contain him? You ask, what has Billups done with AI’s team and vise versa? Well, Iverson is a terrible fit with the Pistons. I dont think anyone would argue that. I think that was a move geared towards freeing up money for 2010 as much as it was to win if not more so. Iverson WAS a cancer for the Pistons, but one season does not a decade make. The Nuggets won 54 games this year. Last year they won 50. Let’s not act as though they won the championship just yet. We’re in the second round. Also, last years West was much tougher than this years. This year San Antonio has been hammered with injuries, the Hornets have been without Chandler and are down considerably, the Rockets have suffered from injury as well, the Warriors have dismantled their roster, we all saw what happened to the Suns, and Utah was without a healthy Boozer pretty much all year. This is the worst the Western Conference has been in years. Only the Lakers and Blazers really improved. I know every team deals with injury etc…but this year was to the extreme. I will, however, give Chauncey a great deal of credit for changing the attitude of an underachieving team and giving them the leadership that they have lacked. But lets not act like he resucitated a dying franchise. also, realize that AI has a higher career FG% than Chauncey, and has a higher career avg. in pts, rebs, asts, and stls.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Iverson didn’t single handily take any team anywhere. He was a piece to hard nosed defensive minded team. That team played great D and kept other teams scoring down. He was important because that 76er team needed SCORING, so thats what he did. You guys act like he did that solo, do any of you actually watch bball. We know what Iverson brought to that team, scoring, horrible fg%, even worse shot selcection, and steals. The same sh*t he has always brought. Those pieces weren’t that bad for East at that time. You guys act like he was some kind of GOD and just started pulling down boards, blocking shots, actually guard the other teams 2, and facilitated the O. Single handily, haha!!! Good One

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

Comparing AI to Chauncy is like comparing Me to my brother

[WälseParticipant]

first off, i do watch b-ball. second, i think calling Iverson “a piece” is selling him a little short. my main issue is this. you get on Iverson for his shot selection and fg% when your fave player is Kobe Bryant, who is hardly known for taking high percentage shots. Iverson’s career fg% is 43. Kobe’s is 45%. Is that a huge difference? We’ve all seen Kobe shoot over triple teams. Hold the ball, fake, fake, fake then shoot while his teammates stand around. I dont think you’re being fair. You praise Kobe for that “killer instinct”. Isn’t that a trait that AI and Kobe share? Isn’t that what makes them great scorers? I’m not for one second saying AI is as good as Kobe, because clearly he is not, but dont pretend that The Mamba hasn’t had his share of 7-24 nights? Furthemore, if KB24 was on the 76ers all those years and AI was a Laker, what would this debate look like? Shaq has a funny way of making guys winners. Sorry to bring Kobe into this. All i’m saying is, just be objective for once.

[Al-Farouq AminuParticipant]

alphamale310 !!!

1. George Karl criticized Iverson for jacking up shots and demanded to trade him for C-Bill, and look at what’s happening !!! Denver is playing its best b-ball in many years.

2. When IGGY started to play for the the 6ers, Iverson rarely gave the ball to him and played bad team b-ball, and that’s why he got traded to Denver, and look, ever since Iverson got left, the 6ers have been making the playoffs.

So what does The Answer’s history tell you? He is not a good team player, and that’s what seperats him the most from Kobe24…

[WälseParticipant]

george carl criticizes everyone, and i hardly think he went to the front office and said “i demand that you trade Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups!” & like i said, the west is down. if they win the title, i stand corrected. i would not dispute that AI is not great for team ball. but if you read my post, my issue is with praising a guy for something, and then bashing another guy for the same thing. And suddenly Kobe is a great teammate? Are we talking about the same guy who ran Shaq outta town, tried to get rid of Bynum, demanded a trade not so long ago, and quit on his team in the playoffs. The same guy who has never even thrown a pass in the 4th quarter of any game? Get outta here with that crap! Am i arguing with the same guy who thinks Dwight Howard plays like Hakeem Olajuwon?

[espn365Participant]

One year ago there is no debate whatsoever. This is the last year of the decade. On the whole over the past 10 years, if you take players A, B, C, and D at the 2-5 spots, Allen Iverson gives your team a better shot at winning than Chauncey Billups does. I’m not saying he will make those other players better than Billups would make them, but he gives all 5 the better chance at winning. This debate needs to end now. Allen Iverson is an all-time great. This is like saying Joe Dumars was a better player than Dominique Wilkins b/c ‘Nique never played in a finals and Dumars has 2 rings and a Finals MVP.
And I dont know if anyone here has actually compared Dwight to Hakeem, but if Dwight ever develops 1/2 the post moves Hakeem had then you could lock him in for about 45ppg.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Chauncey’s TrueShooting% is exponentially better than Iverson’s because he shoots threes so much better. Basically, he’s a much more efficient scorer (and overall player.) Chauncey’s understanding of the team game is light years beyond Iverson’s (and most of the NBA’s, for that matter.)
Iverson’s a great pure scorer. That’s about all the credit I will give him. That being said, he’s a 6-foot tall scorer with a bad outside shot who loves to shoot and either can’t or won’t pass.
Chauncey was the best player and leader on one of the best teams of the decade. Name a situation where Iverson could have done the same thing. I don’t think you can find one (Cue the response: “Detroit was a bad situation, George Karl hates everyone, etc.” Except Chauncey succeeded in both situations. Iverson did not. Hmmmm…coincidental). Iverson just never learned how to play unless the ball was in his hands.

Kobe’s a mediocre team player at best, too. He was more effective as the second option, and has yet to prove he can carry a team to the title. He would rather shoot contested 3’s than use his physical tools to drive to the hoop to open up the floor and create for his teammates…something that seems to come more naturally to guys like D-Wade, Lebron, C-Paul.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

I would say this debate is more like comparing Scottie Pippen to Dominique Wilkens.
Chauncey has the stats to back up the winning…you guys seem to ignore that.

[espn365Participant]

Player A: 16.1 ppg, 4.5 apg, 2.2 rpg, .9 spg, 46%FG, 85%FT, 6 All-Star Games
Player B: 15.1 ppg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 rpg, 1.0 spg, 42%FG, 89%FT, 4 All-Star Games

Both Dumars and Billups are considered excellent defensive guards and team leaders. Joe Dumars is in the HOF, Billups is borderline and will probably fall short. FYI: Dumars is Player A.
** Also, Scottie Pippen is one of the top 30 or so players ever and probably a top 5 defensive player of all-time. I love Wilkins but he’s not the player Pippen was.

[WälseParticipant]

espn365 is doing Billups a favor by comparing him to Joe Dumars who was a better defender, scorer, and winner than Chauncey. how is this even a debate when Billups was non-existent the first three years of the decade?

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Check PER numbers since he joined the Pistons. If you are going to ignore stats like that, then I’m not going to debate statistical issue with you. The 1990 Pistons scored 102ppg, the 2004 Pistons scored 90ppg. That was a pace issue, which you can’t/should not ignore. Chauncey’s PER numbers are better than Isiah’s as well.
Chauncey’s been an excellent player for the past 7 years. That’s more than enough evidence.
He is one of the ten best players of the last decade.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

I almost don’t know what to say alpha, almost, Kobe does so many things well. So you CAN LIVE with it. I know he takes bad shots, but I also know when the Lakers meet the Cavs he WILL BE GUARDING KING JAMES (unless in foul trouble) from the tip. I don’t know many STARS in the league who always WANT TO GUARD the other stars of the league. Kobe’s a 2, Iverson’s a 2, which one seems like a defensive mismatch EVERY game. Theirs no comparison between the two, so don’t even try weak arguments on this topic. Fact is BILLUPS is more important than Iverson, Billups defines TEAM and WINNER, something Iverson does not.

[espn365Participant]

I know PER is a solid barometer of players, but you can’t use it as the be all and end all of statistics. FT% is a part of PER, as it should be, but Iverson makes 2 more fts/g than Billups attempts in his career. FG% will be skewed b/c Billups has taken a lot more open shots than Iverson in his career. PER is also based on 40mpg. So Iverson is one of a handful of players in the history of the league who gets hurt in that department because he has led the league in mpg more than half the years he’s been in the league. I never said Chauncey was not an excellent player, he’s just not one of the top 10 of the decade. Forget pace of play and all that and just look at games. Chanucey has never in his career been guarded by the opponent’s best defensive player, whereas Iverson has had to deal with that since coming into the league and he still has managed to put up numbers. The idea that other people could score as many points as him with the same number of shots is an argument that is laughable. People are brainwashed by this past year. Try and be objective, stats will not back up Billups and neither will game film.

[michaelds911Participant]

This is to nthegoodlife, ch15, and whoever thinks Billups is better. Who would you pick if you were starting a franchise from scratch, and had to choose between the two?

[ch15r36isParticipant]

First off, I was comparing the PER’s of Dumars and Billups. There is no comparison there…Dumars never hit the 20’s…Isiah rarely did either.

Now, I realize comparing Iverson and Billups is apples and oranges, at best. They are absolutely different players.
Billups is a 6’3-200lb combo guard who can play with the ball or off the ball, and prefers the halfcourt game.
Iverson is a 6’0-170lb combo guard who needs to have the ball, and prefers a faster-speed game.
Given the two different styles of play, you can’t just look at pure pts/game, FG%, asts/game, etc. That’s where PER evens things out. AI’s PER numbers compare favorably to Billups in many seasons, but to simply look at the counting stats and say that Iverson is a better player is just not fair to anyone. Over the course of the past 7 years, (or compare Iverson’s best 7-year stretch to Billups) the two are pretty evenly matched when you break it down to PER.

Now, here’s the difference, in my opinion, and why I would say that Chauncey has been the better player over the past decade: With Iverson, he is at his best when he can play as an individual, and is given the freedom to create and shoot at will. That makes him an easier matchup, because an individual might beat you on occassion, but he will not beat you consistently, especially when he’s only shooting 42% overall, 30% from 3, and turning the ball over 3+ times a game. Billups, on the other hand, is a more efficient offensive player who can control the tempo of a game, and demands attention from the outside and off the dribble, but also doesn’t need to take 75% of his team’s shots to be effective. This creates more matchup problems for the other team, because now you can’t just focus on one player.

You just can’t prove to me that Iverson, despite his God-given natural talent ever developed the ability to lead a team, make teammates better, or win anything significant.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Dumb question.
I would take Billups any and every day of the week. Ask the Denver Nuggets or the Detroit Pistons first, though.

[michaelds911Participant]

And you would feel pretty confident that he could get you a championship? If so you’re a funny guy.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Yep. Thanks.

[espn365Participant]

At this point I am giving up the debate because it’s going to cause me an ulcer. I continue to tell people to stop thinking of this year alone yet people keep talking about the Nuggets and Pistons. The original topic was for the entire decade. you want to ignore the frist 2 years of the decade when Chauncey was on the t’wolves and when Iverson took a Sixers team to the finals. Say what you want, but you replace Chauncey Billups (any year of his you want), and that team does not go to the finals. And yes, Iverson needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but so does every great scorer. He also draws double teams, Billups does not. If you watch basketball enough it is clear that Iverson has had the better DECADE than Chauncey.
*** question to ch15, do you believe Allen Iverson will be in the HOF ?
*** also, do you think Chauncey will be in the HOF ?
*** do you think Billups take’s that Sixers team to the Finals ?
*** I said it earlier, Jose Calderon makes his teammates better, so is he better than Iverson ? Andre Miller makes his teammates better, is he better than Iverson?
*** And you are not making any points, the fact that Isiah Thomas had a low PER is awesome simply for the fact that he’s one of the top 5 pgs ever.
Also, if you want to compare trades, just look at what it takes to get Iverson. The Nuggets had to give away Miller and multiple 1st rd picks. The Pistons gave up Billups, McDyess, and I think a 2nd rd pick. Clearly Iverson, at least up until the date of the trade, was considered the better player by NBA GMs. Yes it was also a cap move by the Pistons, but they still had to get the deal done.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Didn’t that have somethin to do with his huge pay check…cause they cut dyce.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

If you measure success by scoring averages and ESPN headlines, Iverson is your man.
We don’t have anything else to debate here. You stated your case. I stated mine. Let us move on.

[WälseParticipant]

anyone planning to build a franchise around Chauncey Billups is getting fired real quick. Iverson in his prime was light years ahead of Billups on his best day. There’s a reason he was the #1 pick. He’s a franchise player. nthegoodlife, as far as AI being a 2, he only plays the 2 on offense. and if Kobe is such a defensive force that guards the other teams best offensive guy, why is he guarding Battier and not Artest? once again i’m not arguing that AI is Kobe’s equal, just that they have some similar traits. this AI vs. Chauncey debate is even stupider than KG vs.Dirk. Chauncey has never even been the focal point of any team. The offensive star in Denver is Melo. Or J.R. Smith at times. The stars on D are K-Mart and Birdman. The Pistons offense was catered to Rip Hamilton. He was option #1. The defensive stalwarts were Tayshaun Prince, and the 2 Wallace’s. Chauncey has provided valuable leadership and steady play for both squads, but he’s never been the guy. And here we are debating if he’s better than the decades premier scorer? All of the other guys on these lists were franchise players, until you get to Billups. It’s strange to me that he would even be considered given the tone of the lists. And downplay his steals and the havoc Iverson creates on defense all you want, but those types of plays make opposing players hesitant and provide a spark thats much bigger than just 2 points.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

love ESPN and ESPN “Plays” only. All I see Artest doing is hitting open J’s. Wait to they get to the CAVS. Kobe doesn’t need to guard Artest to advance, but he will need to guard Bron. Obviously you two are highlight fans, and thats fine, just don’t make uneducated bball arguments with the BIG BOYS. OK. I can’t imagine to many players in the league even wanting to play with him. You’ve made your case, and many times theirs two valid sides to any debate, fact is, this isn’t one of those times. You two, just need to fold’em. Iverson, haha, that still makes me laugh.

[WälseParticipant]

are you kidding me? you make piss poor arguments all the time. you’re one of the most unobjective posters i’ve encountered here. you love to insult the opinion of others, but it means nothing coming from you because no one values your opinion. no one considers you a BIG BOY. you state your opinion, but can never really support those opinions with anything substantial. I can give you information until my hands bleed and in the end you still think you are right because you’re so stubborn. as much as i disagree with ch15r36is, at least he can back his opinion with something. you just bring your opinion and fandom to the table. BIG BOYS come with a little more than that. and if you’re gonna call me “uneducated” i hope you can back that up…

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Okay, here’s what I think it really boils down to.
– Iverson is clearly a once-in-a-lifetime talent, just stuck in a very average-sized body that makes it harder for him to use those gifts in the NBA than if he were, say, 6’3-200. This leads to the poor-shooting, turnovers, etc.
– Chauncey is quite talented himself, but not the same type of athlete that Iverson is. However, he has a much better NBA build which allows him to be more efficient and a much better understanding of the game.
– Iverson can make bad teams mediocre.
– Billups can make good teams great.

So, start a franchise with Iverson, then trade him after 2-3 years for Chauncey. We all win.

[michaelds911Participant]

I know I would rather have a guy who could take over a game himself, rather than one who depends on others. One more question lol. If Kobe never played with Shaq and never won any titles, would Richard Hamilton be better than him because he is efficient and won a ring?

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Listen, guys, for the sake of future arguments, taking one of my arguments about one player, twisting it, and applying it to other players is not an effective way to state your case.
For example, if I were to say:
Chauncey Billups…
– Has shown the ability to make good teams great.
– Was the best player on a team that went to 6 consecutive Conference Finals, and 2 NBA Finals.
– Was an NBA Finals MVP.
– During their peak years, has overall PER numbers on par with Allen Iverson.
– Is a better shooter, turns the ball over less, and runs a team better than Iverson
– Has career Win Share numbers on par with Iverson.
– Was the much better player after the trade for Iverson, and made the Nuggets a better team than Iverson did.

You cannot say…
– Well, if Rip Hamilton won a ring (simply winning a Finals was not one of my arguments) does that make him a better player than Kobe (hypothetically, if Kobe never won three rings)?
or…
– Jose Calderon and Andre Miller makes their teammates better (also, not one of my arguments), does that mean they are better than Iverson?

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

I never claimed you were uneducated, don’t take my text out of context. I just don’t see how a true fan of the game could come to the conclusion Iverson is great, thats all. We’re all entitled to our own opinions, so we’ll agree to disagree. In support of the defense of my argument, I was basing my answer off the many people I know personally who play. It just seems to me that the guy who is a fan of Iverson is more about the “crossover” and “one – on – one” play, and doesn’t gauge the entire game for what it is. I guess thats not you after all, but we’ll agree to disagree.

[michaelds911Participant]

1) He is a bum without a good team.

2) I always thought Billups was the third and sometimes fourth most important guy on the team behind everyone except Rasheed.

3) They possibly wouldn’t even had been in the finals if it was not for Tayshaun blocking Reggie Miller’s lay-up.

4) You still haven’t answered my boy espn’s question, if he was on the sixers could they make it to a championship.

5) How many times has this guy scored 30 in a game? Has he hit 40?

The only thing he is better at is shooting percentages.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

1) Hard to say since he has been on a good team for the entire prime of his career.
2) You were always wrong, then.
3) They WERE in the Finals, though…twice.
4)In his prime, it’s very possible. Aaron McKie, Snow and Mutombo (in a conference with NO centers) all played well for that team. It took them 7 games in each of the preceding two series to win. That was the weakest the Eastern Conference has ever been.
Could Iverson have taken the Pistons to the Finals if he were in Billups place? No, he probably just would have sat on the bench and then eventually decided to stop playing.
5) How many times has Iverson turned the ball over 8 or more times in a game in his career? (The answer: 28)

[joecheck88Participant]

Billups has had a more successful decade than iverson team wise. The man made it to what 6 six eastern conference fianls, not to mention it looks like he will now make it to the western conference finals this year which iverson never did. you cant argue that would the pistons been as good as they were with iverson and without billups. its not a fair argument, nobody can guess what it would have been like. the pistons had way more talent then those sixers team. Billups has had a very good decade team wise, which is the most important. but billups doesnt come close to iverson as a player and that is the end of that. yea iverson has turned the ball over alot but so has steve nash and jason kidd. then someone will argue that they have a better assist to turnover ratio then iverson, who cares. the fact is iverson was putting up close to 30 a game. the assist to turnover thing is stupid for iverson because he is a 2 guard with the ball in his hands all the time. my point is iverson is a better individual and an easy hall of famer. billups has been the ultimate team player and had more success.

[michaelds911Participant]

1) Iverson has been good since day one, it shouldn’t take you 5 years to get decent.

2) I’m definitely not wrong about him being the third most important

3) I meant to say won a finals ring and mvp, not been to a Finals.

4) He wouldn’t have cam anywhere near the Finals, he wouldn’t even of made the playoffs a matter of fact

5) And he hasn’t hit 40 lol, and that turnover number doesn’t seem that bad since he always has the ball in his hands and has almost played 1,000 games.

[WälseParticipant]

lol…i know you dont believe Chauncey could have taken that 76ers team to the finals that year! i know for a fact that you are much smarter than that. who would score?

[michaelds911Participant]

Aaron McKie will be hitting them 3’s lol I guess. And Chauncey will be throwing them alley-oops to Mutumbo all day lolololol. And don’t forget about Matt Geigers, Olajuwon like post moves.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

That team was built FOR IVERSON. Guys who play good TEAM D and PLAY HARD. THEY COULDN”T SCORE, thats where IVERSON CAME IN to the equation. This is ridiculous, you guys act like he did something so great that year. If anything that season was a tribute to how good that TEAM REALLY WAS. Iverson ONLY MADE IT ONCE and got WHACKED. Remember Iverson did the same thing he always does, SCORE. You Iverson lovers keep forgetting that, HE JUST SCORED. Nothing different from his ENTIRE CAREER. He didn’t carry SH*T, he scored, it was A TEAM EFFORT. Iverson fanboy’s, their something else…

[espn365Participant]

I’m totally ok with Iverson vs. Billups arguments b/c they can be justified and carried with knowledge and everything. But to say Iverson “didn’t carry SH*T” is a little out there. I was only stating facts earlier, and the person who I may have been arguing with (ch15) accepted the argument and we have moved on b/c obviously people have differing points-of-view. But REALLY ? ( only CAPS to make a point) Nthegoodlife, I feel like I’ve read some comments of yours and you seem very knowledgeable. But man, I may be the most objective person who posts on this site, look at what you are saying. I think we all have to move on from this debate and start a new one… How bout— in their primes, would you rather have John Stockton or Isiah Thomas (different peak seasons) ????

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Just trying to get my point, maybe overdone though. Its all good though…

[michaelds911Participant]

Well ESPN, I would rather have Stockton lol.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

1999: The Knicks make it to the Finals as the 8th seed.
2000: Jalen Rose leads the Pacers to the Finals.
2001: Allen Iverson leads the 76ers to a12-11 playoff record and a trip to the Finals. The only time Iverson has ever made it past the 2nd round or been on a team that has won 50 games.

nthegoodlife does make a reasonable point. That team was built to allow a 6-foot turnover-prone scoring guard who can’t shoot, basically do whatever he wants with the ball. They made it to the Finals. That was as far as he could ever lead a team.

[michaelds911Participant]

1999: I definitely thought that was the lock out season, so that season was very short and didn’t truly have the right seeds in the right place.
2000: Don’t forget about Reggie Miller lol, and Jalen Rose isn’t a bum by the way.
2001: If Billups was on that team, they probably would have had a 50 loss season.

You guys both make good points, but none of us are going to change each others opinion lol. But you guys act like the West was an Extreme powerhouse during the ’99, ’00, and ’01 season, it was the Spurs and Lakers. Anybody else out of the west could have been beaten by an east team.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

6 teams in the West won 50 games in 99-00, 7 teams in the West won 50 games in 00-01.
I would argue at least 6 West teams could have won the title before an East team did from 1999 through 2003.
Once the competition in the East got serious enough to compete with the West again, the Sixers stopped winning playoff series.

[michaelds911Participant]

They won 50 games but it definitely wouldn’t have been a blowout series. A matter a fact the Lakers didn’t even blowout the Pacers in the ’00 finals, it went to 6 games and was pretty close. So im confident that the East would have a chance against anybody except the Lakers and Spurs.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Let’s compare both of their careers:

Billups – 6’3″ 202 PG
15.1 PTS, .416 FG%, .388 3-PT%, .889 FT%, 5.6 ASTS, 2.9 REBS, 1.04 STL & 2.03 TO’s.

Iverson – 6’0″ 165 SG/PG
27.1 PTS, .425 FG%, .313 3-PT%, .780 FT%, 6.2 ASTS, 3.7 REBS, 2.22 STLs & 3.61 TO’s.

There is NO comparison here. Iverson has averaged more PTS & has shot a better FG%. Iverson has even averaged more ASTS & REBS. Other than FT%, 3-PT% & TO’s, Iverson is better than Billups in every area.

Let’s get serious. Not only has Iverson had a better career statistically wise, he’s just a better baller than Billups. Billups has never carried a team on his back, nor is he even capable of doing so. Iverson carried Philadelphia on his back & was considered a SUPERSTAR. Iverson is a lock for the Hall of Fame and will go down as one of the most prolific scorers in NBA HISTORY. I mean, Iverson came into the league and put up 23.5 PTS, 7.5 ASTS & 4.1 REBS in his ROOKIE season. Billups played on 5 different teams in his first 6 seasons. With the lack of games he was playing & PT he was getting, Billups should be fresh at this point in his career. This shouldn’t even be a debate.

I like Billups, but I just don’t think he’s in the same breath as Iverson. I mean, Iverson carried a franchise people! Knock his game all you want, but not too many players can CARRY A FRANCHISE. Iverson at 6’0″ 165 lbs carried a franchise!

1a. Shaq – The most dominate & charismatic big man ever, PERIOD. There will never be another like him.
1b. Duncan – The best power forward ever. He’s a flat out winner in every sense of the word.
3. Kobe – Hate, but this man came into the league at 17. He’s competed consistently at a high level for years. What hasn’t he done? The closest player to Jordan the NBA will EVER see.
4. LeBron – Just drafted in 2003. We all know he’ll be #1 eventually. It’s amazing he’s at #4 so soon in his career, but at only 24 years old he’s already a world wide name. I didn’t think it was possible, but he doesn’t have a ceiling. As long as he gets the rings, I don’t think there’s any question he’ll be considered the greatest ever. Even better than Jordan.
5. Iverson – How can anyone question the impact he’s had over the last decade? If you are, you’re hating. At 6′ 0″ 165, you have to be amazed at what he’s done CONSISTENTLY.
6. Kidd – The best point guard since Magic. A walking triple double, even still in his old age. All he needs is a ring.
7. KG – Has more talent than Duncan, but not the rings. Success in the NBA is about timing… Duncan landed with The Admiral & Popp, while Garnett landed with Minny & McHale. It’s unfortunate to see him get injured & not have the chance to get another ring.
8. Wade – Drafted in 2003. Lucked up and got a ring early with Shaq, GP & Mourning. A phenomenal talent, but how long will his career last considering his style of play? The only player on this list who hasn’t won a MVP (of the reg season). He does have a Finals MVP & he beat the Mavericks almost by himself.
9. Dirk – A unique 7-footer who started the infatuation with overseas players. Darko & Bargnani should thank Dirk. He’s underappreciated, but he’s a matchup nightmare. He just doesn’t seem to have the killer instinct or confidence. He’s a unique talent, but doesn’t possess the leadership qualities or toughness to push his teams over the hump.
10. Steve Nash – Doesn’t play any defense whatsoever, but you can’t deny the impact he’s had. He basically changed the MVP award to the “who can make your teammates better” award.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

This is seriously played, but I will give you one thing. He can’t play D, which Billups is great at, also players like playing with Billups.

[ch15r36isParticipant]

…and holding them down at the same time.
I’ve already made the argument, but I think he really limited what the Sixers have been able to do this past decade. Sorry, but only hitting 50 wins and getting past the second round once over a 10 year span is not my idea of “carrying a franchise.”
Stop using the “career averages” platform as well. We’ve already been over this. Take Billups’ last 7 years. Take Iverson’s 7 best years. There is not a large statistical difference when you look at the overall measure of PER or Win Shares.
I am certainly amazed at what Iverson has done at his size, but he’s accomplished less (albeit, in a more spectacular/flashy fashion) than Chauncey has this decade.

To emphasize, this post was never about most talented, or best scorers. It was about most overall accomplished players this decade. Iverson’s overall resume just falls short of making the top 10.

[michaelds911Participant]

Im pretty much done talking about it as well but I have one suggestion……Put Tony Parker ahead of Billups, because he is a better player and has accomplished more. But neither one of them should be higher than Iverson in my opinion.

[WälseParticipant]

once again, how can we put a guy on the top 10 players of the decade when he was never the best player on his own team? this debate certainly needs to die…

[ch15r36isParticipant]

Billups was and is the best player on his own team. Statistically, and otherwise. He was the leader, the one who they ran the offense through, and the most valuable player of the Pistons, and the most valuable player now on the Nuggets (check the MVP voting.) You can argue otherwise all day long, but there is no legitimate basis for such an argument, so I will not acknowledge it.
Allen Iverson has been the best player on a lot of very mediocre and bad teams. Chauncey has been the best player on a lot of very good and a couple great teams.
I’d take Billups. So would the Nuggets. So would the Pistons.
Let it die, then…or keep trying to get in the last word.

[WälseParticipant]

obviously, we all want the last word! lol. this thing should have died days ago. it is fun though, i must admit. i think Chauncey’s best player status is very debatable. Chauncey proved his value to the nuggets through his leadership, but is he really their best player? what he’s done for these Nuggets is essentially what Rasheed did for that Pistons team, which is add a dimension that they needed to put them over the top. which is exactly why one could argue that Rasheed was the best player on that team. no doubt, he was the most talented. i’m guessing Big Ben probably got the most regular season MVP consideration that year. he was the face of that team. i would argue that the offense was catered to Rip Hamilton. there’s some legit basis for argument there. i dont think you should dismiss it that easily.

[xlwadylxParticipant]

theres no argument in between kobe lebron and dwayne. they’re the best players in the nba.

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